Jens Spahn in an RND interview: “Germany now has a black sheriff”

Jens Spahn (45) hasn't yet fully furnished his office, which overlooks the Spree River. But he does have a coffee machine. And it's not just the coffee that's black during the interview with the new parliamentary group leader.

Mr. Spahn, the new coalition government has committed to a "change of policy." Above all, however, it depends on a change in mood in the country. How do you intend to achieve this?

There are already three indicators of the policy shift. First, German leadership is once again visible in Europe thanks to Chancellor Friedrich Merz. Second, Interior Minister Alexander Dobrindt initiated the migration turnaround from day one with border security. He is now Germany's black sheriff. And third, investor confidence is returning, as can be seen in the DAX. It has risen by 20 percent since the end of the coalition negotiations. That's an increase of approximately 500 billion euros.

It is said that the DAX looks better than the situation actually is…

The figures demonstrate the significant economic value of trust in good politics. There may be some premature praise, but this is a positive sign after years of money flowing out of Germany. It's important that we don't disappoint this newfound trust and confidence.

Chancellor Friedrich Merz says citizens should work harder to get the economy moving. Shouldn't the government first create the conditions for this—for example, by providing reliable childcare?

To facilitate work-life balance, we are first extending the full-day expansion program. Above all, it must be worthwhile to work more. Overtime will be taxed more favorably, and older workers will soon be able to earn additional income through an active pension. We are committed to voluntary participation. Increasing the workload alone is not enough; it also requires greater labor productivity. We want to achieve this through a tax boost for more investment in digitalization, artificial intelligence, and new machines.

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We understood the Chancellor to mean that in our society too much emphasis is placed on work-life balance and there is too little will to tackle it.

If the majority of Germans see that the government is taking action itself, then there will be more enthusiasm for it overall. But we also need to question attitudes: Is work merely an unpleasant interruption to leisure time? For the CDU and CSU, work is part of being human and part of one's identity. A positive attitude toward work is typically German in the best sense.

Should the citizen's allowance perhaps be limited in time - to one year?

What must be limited above all is the massive increase in the citizen's income. A total of 52 billion euros is now spent on this in the federal budget each year. The minimum subsistence level must be guaranteed in Germany. However, the central principle is: those who can work should work, or lose their entitlement to benefits. In the long run, the population will not accept the steadily increasing proportion of people with a migration background and who have only been in Germany for a short time receiving citizen's income. This is socially explosive. We want to establish social peace.

After your election as parliamentary group leader, CSU leader Söder said, 'Jens can also be loyal.' One had the impression that you had to suppress the response: 'You just have to say that.' Was that true?

I am always happy when Markus Söder presents the facts correctly.

Conversely, Söder’s statement means that you are otherwise not loyal.

I don't think that's what Markus Söder meant. Markus Söder, the CSU, and I have a good relationship. It's been that way for a long time; I'm even a guest member of the CSU. I'm grateful for the trust the two party leaders have placed in me.

Jens Spahn, Chairman of the CDU/CSU parliamentary group in the German Bundestag.

Source: photothek.de

How well do you get along with your most important negotiating partner, SPD parliamentary group leader Matthias Miersch?

Mutual trust is crucial. We will both certainly stand up firmly for the positions of our parliamentary groups. But we have to know what we can expect from one another. And in the end, it's about finding viable compromises. There's a lovely Chinese proverb: If you can't stop it, you might as well welcome it. Limiting illegal migration should be just as much a joint project as the rent cap. I'm quite certain that things will be better now than under the traffic light coalition and previous grand coalitions. Before the coronavirus pandemic, the last grand coalition was completely unpopular with people, completely out of sorts. We can't let that happen again.

But they do like to polarize. They said of the AfD that it should be treated like other opposition parties and were surprised that this was perceived as a call to normalize the AfD.

No, I first deduced that a vice president in the Bundestag needs a majority to be able to represent the parliament. And then I added a sentence stating that otherwise, in parliamentary proceedings, in organizational matters, in majority and minority rights, the AfD should be treated like any other. I didn't even mention the committee chair. And of course, an AfD MP has the same right to ask questions as a Green Party MP. From my perspective, that was an explanatory sentence.

Now, the CDU/CSU parliamentary group has clearly stated that it will not co-elect any AfD MPs as committee chair. Is the current report by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution the reason for this?

Of course, the classification of the AfD as definitely right-wing extremist by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution has changed something.

How do you intend to reengage voters on the far right of the CDU/CSU who are disappointed because the CDU/CSU failed to keep its campaign promises? Keywords: migration and the debt brake.

A broad center of the country does not want the migration policy of the past ten years. A broad center of the country is fed up with not knowing who is entering our country and why, and with everyone being entitled to social benefits from day one. There is no acceptance of this. We make policy for this majority – which, incidentally, also includes the majority of SPD voters. That is why, since day one of our government, there has been a turnaround on migration and asylum. Asylum seekers are also being turned back at the German border. We will suspend family reunification. We will end the turbo naturalization process. And I can tell you, a large majority of Germans are very satisfied with the past two weeks.

Germany's neighboring countries aren't so satisfied. Poland, for example. Can you explain in plain English the legal basis for tightening border controls and turning back migrants—and why, in your opinion, EU law isn't being violated?

Those arriving from safe third countries must be denied entry; that's exactly what the law says. The 2015 order to deviate from this has finally been lifted. And if you want to hear it in simple terms: Alexander Dobrindt, as Federal Minister of the Interior, has restored the legal situation that existed before the refugee crisis in September 2015. Incidentally, according to EU law, migrants must apply for asylum in the place where they first set foot on European soil.

Jens Spahn in conversation with the deputy head of the RND capital office, Kristina Dunz (center), and the RND editor-in-chief and head of the capital office, Eva Quadbeck (right).

Source: photothek.de

According to this, hardly anyone would come to Germany.

People like to pretend that people can only find protection in Germany. This borders on national arrogance. The Netherlands, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Austria, the Czech Republic, Poland, Denmark - as far as I can see, these are all countries where people are safe and treated humanely. I am convinced that our neighbors also have a great interest in ending Germany's pull to Europe. We will not stand by and watch as the mood in our country changes and we end up with unstable political conditions. How the citizens of Germany feel about this is at least as important to me as how people in Bern or Vienna feel about what we are doing.

Are you also interested in the problems of EU partners at the EU’s external borders?

Of course. Our signal for a new refugee policy is just the beginning, not the end. Of course, we want and must solve the problem at a European level. Sixteen member states want to develop changes—led, incidentally, by the Social Democratic Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen. We want to conclude agreements with safe third countries. Germany has always put the brakes on this, but that's changing now.

You once said that illegal and irregular migration needs to be stopped. The numbers were already declining during the traffic light period. What target are you aiming for now?

The target, of course, is zero. Anything illegal shouldn't be allowed in. Can we get that number down to zero? Probably not. The absolute number has dropped from 350,000 to 250,000 migrants within a year. But this number is still far too high. Municipalities can't cope any longer. Ending illegal migration as much as possible—that's the goal.

You've always had close contacts with Republicans in the US. Are you worried that the transatlantic relationship will break down under Donald Trump?

The transatlantic partnership is vital to us. Germany and Europe are not safe without the United States. A large part of our prosperity depends on the USA. And that's why I hope that as many members of parliament as possible maintain good contacts with the USA and that we can stabilize the relationship. Without the USA, we won't be able to convince Vladimir Putin to enter into peace negotiations with Ukraine.

So far, Trump has not achieved his goal of ending the war.

But the Europeans, under the leadership of Friedrich Merz, have managed to get Donald Trump to address the issue seriously. And Putin supporters in Germany, especially in the AfD, BSW, and Left Party, should also understand this message: The one who doesn't want peace is Putin. Offers of a ceasefire and peace negotiations are on the table. Ukraine is prepared to go a long way. Putin doesn't want the diplomacy that Gregor Gysi and his colleagues have been talking about for three years. Putin wants war.